Or, the march to theocracy. Or, so much for avoiding a controversial mid-term election session. Glenn Richardson says the House is likely to pass a bill permitting the display of the Ten Commandments and “other historical documents” in county courthouses. History at least implies “not fake,” even if it doesn’t always achieve that end (Columbus “discovering” America, etc.). Courts will probably strike it down, then the GOP will have something to campaign on without really accomplishing anything (again). Hurrah for the fucking Bible Belt.
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What they aren’t talking about is the large amount of cash they’ll need to defend this in court. I am sick of these guys pushing things through and then taxpayers having to foot the legal bills for their stupidity.
Jerks.
I think its a great political move. Thanks Karl Rove.
What is great is that finally the mid ground for “freedom of religion” is not going to be no religion at all. I am sick and tired of the the people with no faith making all the calls for us people with faith.
I find it refreashing for once that the people who are being made to feel “uncomfortable” are the ones who are to quote some wacky Germans in a really cool movie “nihilists”
Hmm. That’s contrary to… let’s see… what’s that document called? Oh yeah, the U.S. Constitution. Funny that most of the people who want “strict constructionist” judges conveniently ignore that pesky little Establishment Clause.
Has anyone ever suggested you not be allowed to go to church and worship any god you see fit? Has anyone ever suggested that your denomination be mandated by the state? Show me one example.
Whereas, what you suggest is I should be forced to acknowledge a Christian god by paying for religious displays with my tax dollars. Explain to me how that’s not infinging on my freedom of religion.
Also, you should go read the post Thomas linked to.
Here is the reason Rusty and this is not a personal attack. You have a “Freedom of Religion” that does not mean that you get a pass from everything else.
To give you an example. I have no right to stop you from disagreeing with me, but I don’t have to give up or leave just because you don’t agree with me. The fact is, that having a sign up doesn’t “force” anything on you.
However requiring that you “follow” what is posted would be. People seem to confuse being forced to “do” something with being inconveinced by something you do not like being present. They are not one and the same.
I might not like the fact that pornography is sold at every public gas station. But you don’t see me stating it needs to be removed. That is the big difference. I am not going to tell you you have to remove your plaques or pull all your “somewhat religious” symbolism. But that won’t stop people that believe the way you do from making me pull mine.
Let’s pretend for a second that just displaying the 10 Commandments or any other religion-specific document on government-owned property wasn’t a violation of the Establishment Clause (it is, but we’re pretending). If my taxpayer dollars are used to pay for that sign, that is also a violation of the Establishment Clause.
If that were the only problem, folks who supported this could get around that by convincing a private group to donate the display, but funding for the document isn’t the only issue. Which beings us to your next point…
A gas station is a private business, whereas a courthouse is a government institution funded with my taxpayer money. Government instituions are not allowed to endorse religion, as stated in the Establishment Clause. Just as a gas station can sell porn, it’s just fine for a church to endorse worshipping whatever deity it pleases — on its own property. But not on the property that my tax dollars pay for.
If religious folks don’t like the Establishment Clause, they should try to drum up 2/3 of the states’ support to have it stricken from the Constitution. They won’t ever get 2/3 of the states to support that, so instead they pass junk bills like this one which will either be thrown out or passed illegally by theocratic activist judges.
I don’t get how the whole “taxpayer money funding religious advocation on public grounds” thing is such an unpalatable thought to so many religious types.
Alright, here is the big question.
What “Religion” is congress endorsing by allowing the 10 Commandments to be posted in courthouses?
Are they endorsing Judaism, Christianity, Islam, the church of Jesus Chtist of Latter Day Saints, which one?
See like it or not not everything in the Bible is not strictly religous, and not everything in the bible is just part of one faith. In fact, to all you “semi intellectuals” out there who “think you know something” the Old Testament is considered more a historical document than anything else.
The existance of the Ten Commandments is really not even debated (the way they were created is, but that is niether here nor there), the fact that they are “God’s Laws” is really not even debated (most people even if not created on the top of mount are willing to state that the Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Testament basis of faith). So I ask again, the Establishment Clause that states “Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion”, just what religion are they establishing.
Before you come back with one of your whitty BS responses, remember that only 10% of this country (According to the most liberal sources) actually state in surveys that they follow no religion or faith base practice at all. Over 80% state that they believe in God (as in Allah, Jehovah or however you wish to refer to him or her).
Last I checked that was more than a slight majority. It might piss some of you off that you live in a country where the “majority” of the people have a faith, belief, or basis of thier morality in a religion, but that is the case.
Also remember that just because I am referring to the “Old Testament” doesn’t mean that a person of Jewish faith would not be refferring to it as a part of the Torah, a Mormon as part of the book of Mormon. Even in the “translations” of the Koran there is reference to the laws set down by Allah.
Now if they were talking about putting a “crucifix” up above the door of the courthouse, that is a different story. But look, Thomas Jefferson was a diest, and the Ten Commandments aren’t crossed out in his Bible. That fact is that the Ten Commandments are NOT a breach of the Establishment Clause. Find a new arguement for your anti religous discourse. But don’t think that any of the founding fathers, or framers of “The Constitution” would even for a second back your point of view.
The Establishment Clause actually reads “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”
“Respecting an establishment of religion” has a much broader scope than “establishing a state religion.” By posting the Ten Commandments at a court house, the state is respecting establishment of Jewish and Christian religions above others.
That’s nice. I’m glad we’re keeping our discourse civil. I can’t wait to read the rest.
Actually, they would. I’ve already covered that at length in another post.
Nice job on the high road, Rusty. For the low road, I’ll be using the tried-and-true “What, did your God prohibit the establishment of a fucking spellcheck?” response.
Taxpayer money shouldn’t be spent on endorsing anyone’s religion — mine (chicken-worship), yours, Rusty’s, or the Dali Lama. If you people would quit being so damned hung up on displaying a piece of friggin paper and possibly more hung up on acutally helping people, then we could spend the money on THAT and agree about it. IIRC, Jesus wanted you to DO things. I really don’t think that posting the Decalogue in every county courthouse counts.
While I agree completely with Rusty on this one, might I add that when Roy Moore put up his Ten Commandments he wasn’t “simply” displaying them–he was requiring defendants and plaintiffis in his courtroom to read them out loud before and during trials and made it clear that anyone who wasn’t a Christian was not going to get fair treatment in his courtroom. He also made public statements, before he was removed from the state court, to the effect that only Christians should be allowed to hold public office or to vote. Posting the Ten Commandments is only the nose of the camel for all those religious wingnuts.
yes. now do something about. you’re just as bad as if you blame the “bible belts” and “the GOP” without action
Zach (note absence of full name or URL, and obligatory poor spelling/lack of capitalization),
What makes you so sure Rusty isn’t doing anything to influence change? You were able to draw an awful lot of conclusions about his life as a whole from one short column.
And, even putting that argument aside - are you saying that observing problems within our government isn’t allowed unless a person is out there on the front lines (literally or figuratively).
I can’t believe I’m taking the time fo post this comment… I know I’m probably just feeding a troll. Or, watering a plant!